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Bob Lazar

The Billy Goodman Happening

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12/20/89

Billy Goodman

Goodman:

What exactly does Area S-4 mean?

Lazar:

I really don't know. It might be referred to as "Site" 4 --

that might be what the "S" is for, but I really don't know.

There are THREE S-4's in all of the Nevada Test Site. The

nuclear test site itself is a small area, and it has "sites"

or "areas" 1 to 29 or 30. The S-4 there, I think, is a

nuclear reactor. There's an S-4 just south of the Tonopah test

range. And there's an S-4 -- the one that I worked at -- just

south of Groom Lake.

Goodman:

Bob Lazar, while working there as a Government scientist, saw

not only one but as many as nine flying saucers. And he's

telling the whole world about it. He wants everybody to know

that in fact there are flying saucers out there. Last time

you were here, you never really told us what are their plans

with these flying saucers. Do you have any idea WHY we have

flying saucers at this point?

Lazar:

I guess it's just essentially research. The idea is to back-

engineer them, to go back and find out how they can be duplicated

using earthly materials and technology.

606:

Is it possible these machines travel in time back and forth?

Lazar:

It's certainly possible. Certainly, when you create any

artificial gravitational field, you technically move in your

own time. So technically, you do slip forward when you create

your own intense gravitational field.

606:

BACK in time too?


7 3  Lazar:

Theoretically, that's possible. Exactly how you would do that,

I don't know off the top of my head.

606:

So that could be used like a time machine, right?

Lazar:

Essentially yeah, that is --

606:

For time travel?

Lazar:

-- that is possible.

606:

Wow! That's really something!

Lazar:

Yeah, that's science-fiction-like.

Fritz, Westlake, California:

Billy, it is sizzling again on the West Coast. Bob Lazar,

thank you very much for coming on again. You must come on.

This has got to go nationwide. The cat is out of the bag.

I'm sure those little gods in S-54 are listening in, and

believe me, it's your best security to come on. If anything

happens to you, we're all behind you, Bob Lazar -- everybody.

This is like a snowball going down the hill and will become an

avalanche, and ignorance will be wiped out. We've got to know

the truth -- for once and forever. They are here! Let's find

out why they are here and who they are and what their purpose is.

Lazar:

Well thank you!

Fritz:

Okay Bob, we're all behind you. Billy, keep that show going!

It's the Number One show in America in talk shows.

Goodman:

Well, thank you very much Fritz. He did explain to you why we

have flying saucers, right?

Fritz:

Well, I know why they are here. The general public has to become

aware; they're just wakening up. It's like a film being lifted

from their eyes. I mean, they've been laughing for forty years!

Goodman:

Wait a minute Fritz. You know why they're here? Why are they

here, Fritz?

Fritz: 
7 3  Well, first of all, it's a conditioning process.

Goodman:

Okay, you got it.

Fritz:

We are in a quarantine because we are so ignorant; our ignorance

keeps us from meeting them. Big brother reaches out the hand and

says, "Come over, little brother, let's have the cosmic connection,"

but we have to become a world together -- earthlings.

We are about 170 nations -- 170 languages; we have to come together.

When we have a spokesman, then we will meet on equal ground.

Tim from Pasadena:

When you looked into the saucer, how does the hatch work? How

does it seal up, and what are all of the mechanics involved?

Lazar:

The hatch -- or whatever it was -- was completely removed; there was

just an opening in the side of the craft.

Tim:

Did the opening have any kind of sealing around it or a lip?

Lazar:

I really don't remember. 'Cause I was so interested in looking

inside, I didn't really catch a strong glimpse of the sealing

mechanism or any other thing around it.

Tim:

When you were previously on Billy's show, you said you looked into

one, and it was all smooth like it had been a wax casting.

 

Lazar:

Yeah, exactly.

Tim:

Now, was that the only one you looked into?

Lazar:

No, it was the only one I looked into. The other ones I just saw

from a distance, so I don't know any detail about them.

Tim:

And the one you looked into, was that the "Sport Model"?

Lazar:

Yes, exactly.

Tim:

And that's the only one you saw fly as well?

Lazar:

Right. 
7 3  

Tim:

What was your work there?

Lazar:

Like I said before, it was essentially to back-engineer the

propulsion and power system.

Tim:

So you weren't really involved in the mechanics of the craft

itself?

Lazar:

No, not at all.

Tim:

But mostly just the Element 115 and all that kind of stuff you

were learning about?

Lazar:

Right.

Goodman:

What is gravity?

Lazar:

Gravity is a wave. It's a force, essentially, just like

electromagnetic waves are a different type of force. I really don't

know a good way to describe gravity.

Goodman:

Einstein and other scientists really don't have an answer for what

gravity is, do they, totally; they don't really understand it

totally, do they?

Lazar:

No, no, not at all. In fact, I don't think we understand

ANYTHING about gravity.

Goodman:

Why don't we just float away ourselves? What keeps us down

on the planet?

Lazar:

That is the attractive force of gravity.

Goodman:

Some people say it presses down, but it doesn't, does it?

Lazar:

No, it doesn't. It's an attractive force. It's like, on

an atomic scale, the strong and weak nuclear forces hold the

atoms individually together.

Goodman: 
7 3  Is your actual title government scientist or physicist?

Lazar:

You could use either one.

Goodman:

You are no longer a government scientist or physicist, right?

Lazar:

Not employed by the government.

Goodman:

But you are continuing in the scientific field. What do you do?

Lazar:

I design and build advanced radiation detection equipment,

mainly alpha radiation equipment for essentially use in

detecting plutonium for national laboratories.

Lee Samuels:

How long has that craft been on this earth?

Lazar:

I really don't know. I don't even know how long it's

been down at S-4.

Samuels:

Do you know where it originally landed?

Lazar:

No, you got me on all that stuff. They really never keep me

in as to --

Samuels:

It could have been here for years?

Lazar:

Yeah. Or it could have been brought in in pieces from

somewhere else, too.

Samuels:

Did you see just one craft or a number of craft?

Lazar:

I saw a number of them.

Samuels:

Did the other workers talk about it, where it came from,

or more they towed in, or whatever?

Lazar:

I don't know. There really wasn't that much conversation

between everyone.

Samuels: 
7 3  Were you by yourself when you were investigating the craft?

Lazar:

Walking by myself. There were security people around me,

but when I crawled underneath on the sub-floor to look at

the gravity amplifiers, I got away from them. But there

was no one right next to me the whole time.

Samuels:

Any evidence of LIVE aliens held captive?

Lazar:

Nothing I could put my finger on.

Samuels:

Then you didn't get to see any at all then in that sector?

Lazar:

Nothing I could put my finger on.

Samuels:

Did the craft have sleeping quarters for aliens? Is it like

a Star Trek craft? What kind of craft is it?

Lazar:

No, it's pretty vacant inside. Granted, a couple of things

were removed; they were sawed off at the base. I don't

know what they were; I just saw little stumps on the ground,

so I don't know what was removed. But it doesn't look

like it had anything like sleeping quarters or anything

like that.

Samuels:

Any writing you could detect or any language on the walls?

Lazar:

No.

Samuels:

Any panels, like a dashboard on a car?

Lazar:

Yeah. In fact, that was one of the things -- There was more

than one control panel set up, but it looks like one was

removed.

Samuels:

Were these craft all from the same source? Were they all

identical?

Lazar:

No. Each craft was completely different in physical

appearance. I didn't get to look in depth at the other

craft, but I only fooled around with one.

ufospin.gif

I applaud your courage.

Caller (referring to a certain book):

Have you heard of him?

Lazar:

I think I thumbed through that book once. I think John

Lear --

Caller:

What the heck is an energy grid on our planet?

Lazar:

I don't know. I don't buy that theory or anything in

that book. It's a grid outlined over the entire globe,

and at each intersection there's an energy vortex of

some kind. I'd rather not comment since I don't buy it.

Caller:

On TV you mentioned something about a time warp and a

folding over. What did you mean by that?

Lazar:

Right. It's how gravity, whether produced artificially

or naturally, distorts time and space.

Caller:

I read about Nicola Tesla questioning Einstein's theory

of relativity. He says that energy DOESN'T come from

matter. Where does it come from if it doesn't come

from matter?

Lazar:

That's a strange question. It can be EXTRACTED from

matter. But it can be extracted by other means, too.

I really don't understand that [question].

Tom from Los Angeles:

How can UFOs be kept secret for 40 years?

Lazar:

I did pose that question to some people at S-4, and the

answer that I got was that it's the easiest thing TO keep

secret because of the subject matter.

Tom:

Is that because it's tied in with a lot of parapsychology-

psychic-type stuff -- National Enquirer?

Lazar:

Maybe so. There is so much disinformation made so available

to the public via the tabloids and things like that that

any true information getting out is assumed to originate

from those sources. 
7 3  

Tom:

Carl Sagan is a "people" scientist; he's brought science

down to the general public. What about getting him involved

in this somehow?

Lazar:

I imagine he's fairly open-minded. I've never met him.

Tom:

He's one of the biggest UFO debunkers.

Lazar:

He's going to need his own proof, as everyone should require.

It's impossible to make an absolute believer out of someone

that hasn't had hands-on experience or has seen something for

themselves. That's the way any scientist is going to look

at it.

Tom:

How far is Zeta Reticuli?

Lazar:

I think it's around 32 light years.

Tom:

Do these ships travel faster than light?

Lazar:

It's an irrelevant question because they get around it

because they're not in a linear mode of travel. Since they're

distorting time and space, there's no true time reference.

And since velocity is distance over time, when you begin to

fool around with time, you really can't state a true velocity.

Tom:

Re the SETI program -- the search for radio signals --

couldn't some of these observatories or telescopes be aimed

at the places where aliens supposedly come from?

Lazar:

RADIO waves and frequencies along that band aren't utilized;

it's GRAVITY wave communication, and a radio-telescope isn't

going to pick up anything of that sort.

Goodman:

The way you got to see this UFO was not planned by anyone

wanting you to see it, right? You were walking with security

and you went into a doorway. How did you describe that before?

Lazar:

It may have been planned by them. I had no advance warning of

it. I had been brought in a separate door the whole time, and

one specific time I was just led into the area where I worked --

through the hangar doors, which I had never been in before -- 
7 3  walked directly by the craft, and began to slow down by it,

and they said, "Just keep walking; keep your eyes forward," and

it was just like that.

Nothing was said, and I just went and sat down in an empty room.

Goodman:

You went and sat down in an empty room after you saw it?

Lazar:

Yeah, waited for this guy that I worked with, Barry, and then

we went to work on some of the work we were assigned to.

Goodman:

What was some of the work that you actually did? What did

you actually do at S-4? When you had an assignment, what would

it have been, for example?

 

Lazar:

Most of the time I worked there I was being briefed and being

brought up to date on what had been done before. Most of

the hands-on bench work was with the anti-matter reactor

itself: being shown how it operated, giving demonstrations,

and things of that sort.

Goodman:

There was practically no communication with your fellow workers?

Lazar:

Right. They kept that to an absolute minimum. They were on the

buddy system: you always worked with someone, and that's the

person you communicated with, and there was really no cross-

talk between groups.

Goodman:

When you went there for the initial interview, you said at

the time they actually had a gun at your head --

Lazar:

No, that was at the security briefing.

Goodman:

Security, wherever that may be --

The initial interview when you went to work at S-4 I'm talking

about, that's not when the gun was at your head?

Lazar:

No.

Goodman:

When you went there, what was your understanding about what

you were going to be doing?

Lazar: 
7 3  Some high-technology work, and I assumed they were talking

about some sort of gravitational propulsion system.

Goodman:

Were you excited about that?

Lazar:

Oh yeah, very much so, because there was some talk about

that because it was something that I was interested in,

something they KNEW I was interested in, and that was the

hint that I got.

Goodman:

And did it come to fruition? Did what you were told you were

going to do actually happen?

Lazar:

Yeah.

Goodman:

For what period of time?

[Goodman goes right into NEXT question.]

How long were you actually there before you let people know

what was going on up there? How many months or days or whatever?

Lazar:

Probably a couple of months.

Goodman:

Every time you went there you literally had to fly up, land at

Groom Lake, take a bus that was blacked out at the windows --

Lazar:

Right.

Goodman:

-- and no communication on the bus. What were you thinking as

a young man. You're a very young man; let's face it.

Lazar:

I'm not that young.

Goodman:

Well, you're a very young man; I think you are. Anyway, what

were you thinking? Were you just saying, well this just goes

with the territory and I'm just going to go along with this?

Lazar:

Oh yeah, you bet! I would have done that and much more just

to be involved with the project.

Goodman:

Ah! The excitement was just being there, being a part of

what was going on behind the scenes. The secret part about it? 
7 3  

Lazar:

Oh sure. I would have taken a LOT more crap than they had

dealt out.

Goodman:

Can you picture it? He's in his thirties, sitting on a bus,

and accepting the fact, Okay, I'm going to work this morning,

not talking to his compadres on the bus, is looking straight

ahead, blackened-out windows, not driving on asphalt, all dirt

roads. . . Didn't you ask yourself why they didn't do anything

about the dirt roads?

Lazar:

It was a good dirt road. A lot of the roads around there are

dirt, in fact almost all are.

Mark in Los Angeles:

Previously, you described the central column of the propulsion

device as being a wave guide. There was a disk toward the

bottom of this thing down near the anti-matter generator that

spins. What is that disk made of --

Lazar:

There's no spinning disk.

Mark:

What is the disk made of? Is it a capacitor?

Lazar:

A disk? The wave guide extends down, and it widens out and

sits on the curved portion of the reactor. The bottom of the

reactor is a plate, but nothing rotates or moves; it's all

connected together.

Mark:

Is that plate a capacitor?

Lazar:

No.

Mark:

Well, what is it made of?

Lazar:

Metal. That's the only way I can describe it; I don't know

what kind; it's [electric-] --

Mark:

Did anyone determine the kind of metal it was?

Lazar:

Not to my knowledge.

Mark: 
7 3  I understand that part of the propulsion system involves a

very large capacitor -- which is usually the entire lower

surface of the disk -- that can make use of something along the

lines of the [Bifield] Brown Effect. Do you know what

the components of the dielectric material in that capacitor

are?

Lazar:

Well, if the bottom of the disk is one plate of the

capacitor, then the dielectric material would be the air --

if you're going to look at the earth as another plate of

the capacitor. But as far as the capacitor being integral

to the actual craft itself, no, I found no evidence of

that.

Mark:

I understand there's an antenna section in this device; what

is the resonant frequency that that operates at?

Lazar:

The resonant frequency of the gravity wave I do know, but

I don't know it off hand; I just can't remember it.

Mark:

Can you give me a ballpark, like 2,000 kilohertz?

Lazar:

I really don't remember. It's a really odd frequency.

Mark:

Is it measured in kilohertz or gigahertz or megahertz?

Lazar:

I really don't remember.

Mark:

When you first started to go public and were meeting with

people at John Lear's house, I understand that there were

a number of witnesses at those first meetings. One of them

claims that you did say that you had seen an extraterrestrial

while working inside one of those saucers, trying to back-

engineer the propulsion system, and that you had been

looking out through a doorway or through a porthole in the

side of the device and that you had actually seen an

extraterrestrial walking around on the outside of one of

those devices.

Lazar:

Devices meaning disks?

Mark:

Yes.

Lazar:

No. 
7 3  

Mark:

So you're saying you've never seen an extraterrestrial at

S-4.

Lazar:

I really don't want to get into that.

Mark:

The reason I ask is because someone else is claiming that

you have.

Lazar:

Well, stated the way you did, no I didn't. And I never did

look and see an extraterrestrial. As the story goes, and

the reason I never bring it up, is because I thought I saw

something once -- walking at a glance -- and that's all there

is to it. And I won't stand on that fact because it was

just a fleeting glimpse; when I came back, whatever was

there was gone; it could have been a million things.

Mark:

I have a contact that claims that you were responsible

for determining that Element 115 was not in fact necessary

to operate an anti-gravity propulsion device in the earth's

magnetic field. Is that true?

Lazar:

No, it's the exact opposite.

Caller:

Why are you going public? There's obviously a lot of other

staff on the project that senses a great degree of loyalty.

Lazar:

The straw that broke the camel's back was, after I left

the program I became concerned about what happens now. I

made a routine request for my birth certificate, which I

needed just for I.D. purposes, and I was told that it

doesn't exist, I wasn't even born at that hospital. I sat

on that for about a week and just wondered, and then I

began to inquire at previous jobs and also at other schools,

and that information was also gone. And I got the idea that

soon someone was going to disappear, so that's when I contacted

the TV station and essentially let everything out.

Caller:

But you left the program under very amicable circumstances?

Lazar:

No, that's a long, involved story that I really don't want

to get into.

Caller:

Are you afraid of any repercussions from the govenment? 
7 3  

Lazar:

Oh yeah, I was really concerned at one time.

Caller:

Less so now?

Lazar:

Yeah, less so now, but you still keep in the back of your

mind . . .

Caller:

If anything would happen to you now, that would cause such an

uproar in itself, the last thing they would do would be to go

anywhere near you.

Lazar:

Exactly. As someone said on the media somewhere, if there're

following me now, it's to make sure nothing happens to me.

Caller:

Did you witness any working models of the vehicle that were

operational?

Lazar:

I only saw one operate. I saw one at close range while I

was at the area and then at extreme distance -- about 15

miles, when I brought some friends up to look at it.

Caller:

Using the technology that's being used, the craft are very

agile, aren't they?

Lazar:

Oh yes, very, in one specific mode of travel.

Caller:

In one direction at a time?

Lazar:

No. There's two modes of travel. There's a low-speed mode

and a high-speed mode. I don't remember what they called them;

they had a specific name for them.

Caller:

What was the size of the staff working on the project?

Lazar:

22 people that I knew of, in the area that I worked in. How

extensive the rest of the facility was, I don't know.

Caller:

I understand you were frustrated at the size of the staff.

You thought it should have been larger?


7 3  Lazar:

Oh yeah! Much!

Caller:

More could have been learned about the program more

quickly?

Lazar:

Sure! I mean, 22 people, c'mon!

Caller:

Do you think we understand enough about the alien propulsion

technology to build our own vehicles, using this technology --

or are we even close? Do we know what's going on?

Lazar:

Yeah, we know what's going on, but the problem is substituting

earthly materials, and there's no easy way getting around that.

Caller:

How is Element 115 involved in the construction of the vehicles?

Lazar:

Everything seems to come down to 115. It's a super-heavy

element. It seems that as you get into the heavier elements --

and I'm sure this property extends into as-yet-undiscovered

elements in excess of atomic number 115 -- that the ATOMIC

gravity wave inside the atoms holding things together begins

to extend outside of the atomic structure itself, and it's

this wave that can be tapped off in quantity -- small quantity,

actually. This wave can be amplified, contained, and used

for a useful purpose.

Goodman:

Are your radiation detectors for nuclear power plants?

Lazar:

Not nuclear power plants; weapon . . .where they use

plutonium.

Goodman:

Like the latest flight above us now?

Lazar:

The Galileo?

Goodman:

Yeah.

Lazar:

Yeah.

Goodman:

Are you involved with that, Mr. Lazar?


7 3  Lazar:

Not directly. Someone may have used our probes to

detect --

Number 37:

Are they flying these vehicles within our city areas at any

time?

Lazar:

I really don't know. I was only witness to a couple tests.

I don't know how far they go. I think they're very careful

with them. I personally don't think they're whipping them

around the solar system because I don't know how profficient

they are at operating them.

Number 37:

Do you read any UFO literature in book form?

Lazar:

Nothing in book form. I occasionally get handed little tidbits

here and there and glance at them, but no, I don't delve

into reading.

Number 37:

You mentioned some stuff on the Billy Meiers case. Have

you read any of that information because you had mentioned

that you had seen some pictures?

Lazar:

Yeah, I looked at the, what caught my eye was certainly

the -- whatever that book's called -- Contact From the Plaeides

or something -- but it's essentially a picture book; there's

really no text in it. One of the craft in there looks strikingly

similar to the one I call the Sport Model.

Number 37:

What did you think of that similarity? Did that puzzle you?

Lazar:

Yeah, because originally I had kind of discounted the Billy

Meiers stuff, but that craft looks AMAZINGLY like the one that

I worked on. And another thing, somewhere in that book they

had a picture of a grassy field with three round indents in

the ground. Now that would coincide with the three gravity

amplifiers in the bottom of the craft and the imprint that

they do make, so that kind of makes me believe that that

really did occur.

Number 37:

You said you didn't necessarily share the same views of

Bill Cooper and John Lear as far as the big picture

was concerned?

Lazar:

I'm not exactly sure what each individual story is. 
7 3  John Lear has a specific story; Bill Cooper has a specific

story. I do agree with both of them in the fact that,

yeah, there's alien craft here and so on and so forth.

John Lear thinks there're here to use us for food. I

don't exactly remember Bill Cooper's story. But the little

intricate parts here and there -- I just haven't seen any

evidence MYSELF of it. I don't know what these gentlemen

have found out on their own.

Caller 37:

>From everything you know about it, do you believe there is

a possibility there are benevolent creatures in the universe?

Lazar:

Oh sure.

Goodman:

How would you describe this picture?

Lazar:

It's an interesting picture. It looks like a formation of

four and a formation of two flying saucers.

Goodman:

That picture came in a box delivered to the Vagabond Inn.

No name, no nothing. Just a note:

"This picture was taken from the 29-1/2-mile marker on the

day that I had the best time of my life, thanks to you,

Billy Goodman Happening."

That's all.

Lazar:

There's even a distortion in the cloud behind a couple of

them; that's really interesting.

Goodman:

That is right up there where people have gone. Bob mentioned

the same thing that I said when I saw that: "Boy, that's

a DAYTIME shot."

Look at the smile on Bob Lazar's face!

Lazar:

It would be interesting to magnify it to some degree.

Very interesting. They're glowing the color that the

crafts glow.

Goodman:

I don't know who you are out there, but I thank you very,

very, very much, because that is absolute, positive proof

that they are up there in the sky having a good time.

Do you think that they're flown by alien beings, or are 
7 3  WE -- the military -- doing it?

Lazar:

I think that the ones that we're testing . . . the one

that I was involved in I think is being flown by the

military. Whatever else is going on I don't know.

Was that picture taken over Area 51?

Goodman:

That's right. And it looks like it. Recognize the peak?

Lazar:

Yeah. Of course, that's a daytime photograph. And I was

told that all the testing was done at night. And, I mean,

that's interesting.

Goodman:

You described, when you went inside one of these little

puppies, that there were very, very small seats, almost like

a kindergarten type.

Lazar:

Right. Exactly.

Goodman:

So we have to have some small guys doing it -- jockeys

or something?

Lazar:

No,no. You could squeeze into it.

Paul:

Do these craft appear to be shuttle craft, not the main

craft?

Lazar:

I don't know how you'd differentiate between the two?

Paul:

In most instances, people speak of them joining up with

another craft and then going out of the atmosphere. Could

the models you've seen be classed as shuttle craft in

that respect?

Lazar:

I really don't know.

Paul:

They wouldn't carry a big fleet of people?

Lazar:

No, definitely not. They are small, I'm guessing right in

the mid-30-, 40-foot range, somewhere in there. And as far

as carrying a lot of cargo or beings or whatever, no, there's 
7 3  not a whole lot of room there. So possibly there is a larger

craft that they join with, but I didn't see any.

Paul:

Are there more engines than there are craft at S-4?

Lazar:

That's a good question. There's nine craft. I really don't

know.

Paul:

It would be something to explain how in the hell we got more

engines than we do craft. There's got to be some kind of an

agreement or somebody helping us.

Lazar:

Right. There's certainly more fuel than there needs to be.

Paul:

Since they have released you and taken away your scientific

livelihood, I hope you go on the national circuit, 60 Minutes,

the Carson show, everything you can get on, and milk it for

every dime you can get.

Lazar:

[laughs]

Paul:

You have a right to do that since they interrupted your career.

But the important thing is to get this stuff into the hands of

the scientific community, that can do some good with it.

They've been toying with it for years and nothing's come out of

it. We can't get anywhere. We've got to get it out of the

hands of these power-mongers.

Lazar:

I agree one hundred percent.

Paul:

I think that's why you took people up there in the first

place. You were tired of their games.

Wesley Crumb, Charleston, Illinois:

It's a great privilege to get a chance to speak with you.

I greatly admire your courage in coming forward. I saw a

copy of the KLAS program you did. When I first heard about

you I ran up about a $300 phone bill calling New York and

Chicago, and everywhere. I got a rejection today from the

Donahue show that they don't want to do a program about you.

Did you go inside all nine spacecraft?

Lazar:

No, no, just one. 
7 3  

Crumb:

When you were inside the craft, did you see any indication

that either through markings on the controls or otherwise

that these ships were from a different place? Was there

any writing on any controls or anything?

Lazar:

No, not on controls and things like that. But I did see

some evidence of writing.

Crumb:

When you saw the slight demonstration that was performed for

you, were you the only person that was there that saw this

craft operate?

Lazar:

No, there were several people. I was standing right next to

the person who was in radio contact with the craft.

Crumb:

How long did this demonstration last?

Lazar:

It was a short duration. It lifted off the ground, slid

over to the left, then back to the right, and set back

down. It was a very short duration.

Crumb:

But you never saw who was at the controls?

Lazar:

No, because when I was brought in, the craft was in the

hangar. When I came out, it was already out of the hangar

and sitting on -- well, sitting out away from the hangar

some distance. So I don't know how it was brought out, who

brought it out, who got in it. I can only guess.

Crumb:

Is the entire thing underground -- all nine different

hangars?

Lazar:

No, it's not underground; it's just butt up against the

side of a little mountain, a little hill kind of, but it's

kind of inside the mountain.

Crumb:

Do you feel that the billions of dollars that are being

spent on the space program by the administration is a waste

of money, as we already have these ships in our posssession?

Lazar:

No, because look at all the technology that we did get out

of the space program. 
7 3  

Crumb:

Was it ever disclosed to you that these craft were on loan

to us. Is there a chance of them being repossessed at any

time?

Lazar:

No, none of that was ever disclosed to me -- anything about

the origin.

Crumb:

I heard a rumor earlier this evening that your van was shot

at recently. Is there any truth to that?

Lazar:

I don't have a van. I was shot at in my car.

Crumb:

It got passed on to me from the Video Clearinghouse in

Yucaipa, and we've been keeping pretty close touch ever

since this news broke.

I did get a call yesterday from the National Enquirer. They

might follow up and try and do something for you, Bob.

The Enquirer is not exactly the best way you want to go,

but at least it does have some national exposure.

Burt in Burbank:

You said there's more fuel than necessary at the Test

Site?

Lazar:

Yeah. I don't know exactly where it is, but there's

500 pounds.

Burt:

500 pounds of Element 115?

Lazar:

Yeah, and it takes 223 grams per craft, so there's

definitely an abundance of fuel out there.

Burt:

Could you quickly describe the underside of these

ships?

Lazar:

No, because I only saw from a SIDE view of only

one craft. The other ones were always sitting on the

ground; I never saw it. But the underside is

essentially flat. Now, I never got directly under it

to look. There might be some features down there, but

I really don't know.

Burt: 
7 3  The reason I ask is because you were talking about the

three distortions that can come down from the gravity

engines to distort the graph.

Are you aware of any time distortion within the saucer

itself while they are running?

Lazar:

Yeah, there has to be.

Burt:

What about SIZE distortion within the ship?

I've heard reports that people who have been in

these that the inside seems much larger than the

outside would indicate.

Lazar:

I have heard that too, but I haven't really seen

any evidence of that.

Burt:

You were talking about the low- and high-speed modes

and the control factors in there. Can you describe

those modes and what the ship looks like each time

it is going through those modes?

Lazar:

The low-speed mode -- and I REALLY wish I could remember

what they call these, but I can't, as I can't remember

the frequency of the wave --

The low-speed mode: The craft is very vulnerable; it bobs

around. And it's sitting on a weak gravitational field,

sitting on three gravity waves. And it just bounces

around. And it can focus the waves behind it and keep

falling forward and hobble around at low speed.

The second mode: They increase the amplitude of the

field, and the craft begins to lift, and it performs a

ROLL maneuver: it begins to turn, roll, begins to turn

over. As it begins to leave the earth's gravitational

field, they point the bottom of the craft at the

DESTINATION. This is the second mode of travel, where

they converge the three gravity amplifiers -- FOCUS

them -- on a point that they want to go to. Then they

bring them up to full power, and this is where the

tremendous time-space distortion takes place, and that

whips them right to that point.

Burt:

Did you actually bench-test a unit away from the

craft itself?

Lazar:

The reactor, yeah. 
7 3  

Burt:

About how large is this, and could you describe it?

Lazar:

The device itself is probably a plate about 18 inches

square; I said diameter before but it is square. There's

a half-sphere on top where the gravity wave is tapped off

of, but that's about the size of it.

Amy:

Are there subjects you won't talk about regarding what

was going on at Groom Lake at the project?

Lazar:

No, I don't think so.

Amy:

Do you have future plans for more publicity?

Lazar:

There are several networks that are interested.

Amy:

60 Minutes?

Lazar:

That's been mentioned, but I haven't heard anything

officially.

Amy:

Would you do it?

Lazar:

Yeah, I'd do a major network thing, sure.

Amy:

Are you familiar with the movie Hangar 18?

Lazar:

Yeah, I think I saw that when it first came out.

Amy:

Do you remember any parallels to what you know now?

Lazar:

I don't remember enough about the movie.

Amy:

The KLAS-TV program showed a Los Alamos newspaper

article about you during the time that you were

at Los Alamos. What paper was that? When was it

written?

Lazar: 
7 3  The Monitor, July 1982, or something like that.

I think I still have a copy at home.

Amy:

Did the alien craft create harmful radioactivity

in the area?

Lazar:

No.

Amy:

The woman talked about on the show a few days ago --

the child and the two women [Cash/Landrum case?] -- and

they now have cancer. How did that occur?

Lazar:

I've heard of that before, and that sounds like a

really poor attempt at us producing a craft -- a

nuclear-powered craft, really dirty, spewing nuclear

material all over the place. It sounds something

that we would make. It really rings human.

Amy:

Do the aliens appear to be the same physical makeup?

>From your research on the craft itself, can you tell

if they are similar to us -- by the way it was

designed?

Lazar:

Certainly smaller.

Amy:

But there's nothing other than that?

Lazar:

Not from the crafts. I read some material pertaining

to what they call the typical grey. I believe

them to be that.

Goodman:

It was interesting when you asked for your birth

certificate, and you could not locate it. And

they told you that literally you did not exist?

They TOLD you this in so many words?

Lazar:

They said we just have no records here.

Goodman:

And YOU felt that you didn't exist?

Lazar:

I felt that that's what they were trying to

make happen.


7 3  Goodman:

Are you familiar with that type of thing

being done?

Lazar:

No, I never heard of it before. I guess

other people have.

Goodman:

Did you ever get your birth certificate?

Lazar:

Nope.

Goodman:

What about diplomas and things of that nature?

Was there any record of any colleges you have

attended?

Lazar:

George Knapp tracked down one, and they still

had a record there.

Goodman:

All the rest are gone?

Lazar:

Yeah.

Goodman:

Have you called the colleges yourself and asked

for copies?

Lazar:

Yeah. Yeah. Just like I went and called Los

Alamos, too, and they said, no, you never worked

here, and you know, I've been there for years. You

can present them with the information, look, here's

my name in the [Los Alamos] phone book, here are the

people that I've worked with, here is the guy that

I worked for, this is the project I worked on, and

all they say is no. I mean it's ridiculous.

Goodman:

And when you're talking to these people, I'm sure

there are some that probably are just working there;

they don't know any different. They are just checking

the records and saying we don't have anything.

Lazar:

Right. You can hear them when you call up. They

are checking on the computer. They will type in

your name and it won't come up. So that's

probably all they do know.


7 3  Goodman:

People should realize this -- nowadays especially --

you could be pulled out -- all of us could -- and

anything we've ever done. If someone pulls your

name out of a computer where you've worked before

or you've had some past, you don't exist because

the new person or a personnel director going in and

checking -- you're not there. You have no record

of that individual.

Lazar:

Right. It depends on the level that you look into

it, too. Like I said, George Knapp went out to

Los Alamos, and that's where he got the telephone

directory and spoke to someone I worked with out

there, and so on.

Goodman:

This mode of travel involved in moving these

UFOs around: Can you see that being a mode of

travel for us in the future. You said it only

took grams of fuel. That sounds pretty good

to me as far as being efficient. Do you think that

it's possible that we could be traveling like that

in the future?

Lazar:

Well, obviously, THEY do, so I imagine it's possible

in the future.

Goodman:

I'm talking about our automobiles. And do you have to

be off the ground in order to travel like this?

Lazar:

Yeah, I think you do. It's not a very good mode of

slow-speed travel.

Goodman:

Something else we talked about off the air. We might

as well tell the people about it. Some strange things

are going on in your life. You mentioned about car doors

being opened. Describe what happened the other night

when you and your . . . Shelley left the house and you

came back and the doors were wide open. What do you

think about all this?

Lazar:

It's crazy! A friend of mine, Shelley, was over, and

we went out to a bar to have a, a, well, a buffet. We

went out, locked the door, checked everything, and we

came back several hours later, and all the doors were open.

And nothing was disturbed in the house; nothing was

taken. In her car that was left in the driveway, the

seats were moved all the way back like someone big sat 
7 3  in them.

I've gone with other friends to a health club that I

go to. We lock the doors and check them; in fact, I

usually keep a gun in the car and put my wallet on the

dash. We've come out and the doors have been not just

unlocked but actually open -- not even the wallet taken

or the gun. Certainly kids would have done THAT. It's

just like someone wants me to know that they're still

there.

Goodman:

The last time you were on the Happening, you revealed

the gentleman's name --

Lazar:

Dennis Mariano

Goodman:

-- saying he was threatening you and was the biggest

problem in your life. Have you had any problems with him since

then?

Lazar:

No, not recently, no.

Goodman:

How would the anti-matter reactor act in a car?

Lazar:

I don't know if I'd use that in a car. But if you wanted

to, you could use it as a tremendous electrical power.

Goodman:

Which goes back to the beginning of time: We were going

to have electric cars and were convinced we shouldn't have

electric cars because we were told we would have to plug

them in along the way.

It wouldn't be necessary -- as they said years ago -- to

plug in along the way to re-charge the batteries if we had

something inside to generate --

Lazar:

Right. Along the same lines, you could make a NUCLEAR-powered

car, too, running off plutonium.

Goodman:

If we wanted to get involved with this anti-matter-reactor-type

or mode of travel, we'd have to have Element 115 --

Lazar:

Right.

Goodman: 
7 3  -- which you had in your possession at one time.

Lazar:

Yeah, that's one of the things I got. And that was my

ace-in-the-hole.

Goodman:

And they got it off you.

Lazar:

Yeah. We did get it. . . For people that saw the KLAS

tape, where George Knapp points and says, "It's stored in

containers similar to this one," well, that WAS one. And

that's why we put it on there. It was kind of a jab at

them to say we got it. That was the real ace-in-the-hole

because if everyone came out and jumped on it and said

this is all garbage and everything, you know, just to pop

that out and say, go check this!

Goodman:

Listen guys out there at Area S-4: I know you're listening

'cause we heard this recently. Why don't you get some of

that somehow to Bob.

Why would that be your ace-in-the-hole?

Lazar:

Because anyone can verify that it's an element that

doesn't exist.

Goodman:

Boy, that would be wonderful if we could just get that.

Any of you Mercury Workers up there that want to get

involved, and say that you do want to get involved, that

might be a great way to help Bob's cause out and to prove

his story, behind the story.

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